U.S. may stay in Iraq to '09, based on new plan
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19929445/ Strategy gives more time to establish security; at odds with Congress' push BAGHDAD - A revised U.S. military plan envisions establishing security at the local level in Baghdad and elsewhere in Iraq by summer 2008, leading one year later to security conditions nationwide that Iraqi forces are capable of sustaining, U.S. officials said Tuesday. Known as the Joint Campaign Plan, developed in tandem by Gen. David Petraeus and his political counterpart in Baghdad, Ambassador Ryan Crocker, it reflects a timetable starkly at odds with the push by many in Congress to wind down U.S. involvement in a matter of months. Petraeus and Crocker are due to -*test*-('")ify before Congress in September on how the current strategy is working and whether it needs to be revised. The strategy was announced in broad terms by President Bush in January, when he ordered five extra Army brigades to Baghdad to help implement it. But the more detailed campaign plan was developed in the months following — not to alter the strategy but to give it depth, with detailed avenues of approach. My own opinion is that the US will be in Iraq for a lot longer than this suggests.

Hmm, perhaps. But do you think that politics would allow it? Also, Iraq has a Shi'ite dominated government? What? Why? :|

I guess that explains that, but it's rather unnerving- I mean, for one they're Shi'ites. For two, any Shi'ite government in Iraq would end up a puppy state to Iran before long. People just won't admit that Iraqis don't want to live in a Western-style democracy packed with suburbs and mini-malls. Of course, I can see why they may not want to (at least, if they were the ones saying they did to gain support for the invasion).

For two, any Shi'ite government in Iraq would end up a puppy state to Iran before long. Not as much as you might think. The likelihood is that they would move closer to Syria in the long run. People just won't admit that Iraqis don't want to live in a Western-style democracy packed with suburbs and mini-malls. What's the last middle-eastern country you were in? I've been to Saudi Arabia and Qatar....they do emulate the west, in varying ways and to varying degrees, but it's quite noticeable everywhere you look. Cars, clothes, music, mini-malls and most of all money. Of course, I can see why they may not want to (at least, if they were the ones saying they did to gain support for the invasion). Listen, the invasion was going to happen with or without support, it did happen and now the world is dealing with it as it is, so haggling over how it was done, or who said what is mostly pointless.

A post made by kodè, edited for board appearance. For two, any Shi'ite government in Iraq would end up a puppy state to Iran before long. Not as much as you might think. The likelihood is that they would move closer to Syria in the long run. That makes sense. The Middle East is hardly a monolith, and the Shi`ite Arabs will probably align more with their cultural and linguistic brethren in the Levant than their religious brethren in Iran. Witness Azerbaijan, which is religiously Shi`ite but linguistically Turkic: they align themselves with Turkey, while Iran has problems with the loyalty of their Shi`ite Azeri population. People just won't admit that Iraqis don't want to live in a Western-style democracy packed with suburbs and mini-malls. What's the last middle-eastern country you were in? I've been to Saudi Arabia and Qatar....they do emulate the west, in varying ways and to varying degrees, but it's quite noticeable everywhere you look. Cars, clothes, music, mini-malls and most of all money. This is true of Egypt, Lebanon and Syria as well, to the best of my knowledge. Most Arabs are as pissed about their dictatorial governments (in Egypt and Syria) as they are about Western imperialism. All evidence I've seen points to the rise of extremist, anti-modernist Islam being a short-lived phenomenon, which will be quickly discredited after it gains power in any Arab country. I can't seriously see Egypt or Syria becoming an Islamic theocracy; a Western-style democracy may not happen in the near future either, but it's still more likely than the fundamentalists taking over. The hatred many Middle Easterners (and other non-Westerners) feel for the West doesn't really have to do with commercialism or technology or even morals. It has to do with their perception of Western imperialism: that the West, especially the UK and the US, are still trying to control the Middle East and use it to further their own hegemony. Very few people in the West have any idea how acutely many non-Westerners feel the effects of Western colonialism, and how they really want to rule themselves without interference (though still wanting Western music, movies, and money). Many Arabs see Israel as a beachhead for the West to regain/maintain hegemony over the region, or as an attempt by the West to colonialize Arab land, or as a huge military base just a short distance from Cairo, Damascus and Mecca (Jerusalem already having been captured--just like the Crusades!). When the Arabic world sees Palestinians being roughed up by Israeli soldiers, they see the West continuing to humiliate and control them. If the West (mostly America) was no longer seen as having an interest in controlling the region, I'd guarantee that most Arabs would be quite eager to trade with us economically and culturally. Of course, I can see why they may not want to (at least, if they were the ones saying they did to gain support for the invasion). Listen, the invasion was going to happen with or without support, it did happen and now the world is dealing with it as it is, so haggling over how it was done, or who said what is mostly pointless. I saw John McCain on the Daily Show a few months ago, and he made the same point. I agree with him and you that it's pointless to concentrate our energy on the many moral and military failures of the Bush administration's misadventure in Iraq. All of us, America, Europe, Iraq, and the rest of the Middle East have to work together to fix up this mess we're in. I still don't think Iraq in non-salvageable, but it's going to take a lot of hard work and cooperation.